2020/21 Season: Could We See A Change In Playing Style?

[GaribaldiRED]

First of all, sorry for the rather long post but it would be great to learn what other forum readers think about how the team could evolve going forward. I have tried to keep my view/suggestion short but I guess I failed with that  :)

We are now only 5 weeks away from the first game in the 2020/21 season and I'm slowly starting to get over the play off heartbreak and getting exited for the new season.

It seems like Sabri will stay. I will be very surprised if Sabri leaves now giving us very little time to hire a new manager and then to review playing style and targets. So, let's go with that assumption for the time being - Sabri stays.

The first question that pops into my mind is - will Sabri stay with the same formation and tactics?

Sabri’s concept is as far as I see it very simple - the aim is to reduce the number of chances offered to the opposition by sitting deep and compact and play a risk-averse, counter-attacking style based on teamwork and releasing players with individual flair. Furthermore, by sitting deep we allow for maximum space to run into when counter attacking.

I can't see Sabri changing the basics in this concept so I fully expect that Forest will continue to:
• Be a counter attacking team
• Defend compact and deep

With that as the starting point how do we think Forest can evolve within this concept and become a dominant force in the Championship next season?

I believe there is much room for improvements in both areas highlighted above (counter attacking and defending).

If we start with the defensive part of the game letting in 50 goals this season were far too many. I would say that a maximum of 40 goals against should be the target (approx. 0,85 goals per game). In comparison Leeds managed 35. Forest let in 10 goals in the last 6 games in the league with 4 in the fatal last game of the season. I'm certain that conceding 10 less goals this season would have at least given us 10 more points and thus brought us very close to the auto places.

I do believe that Forest have a good defensive structure in place, but I see three major issues that they have to solve:
1. Getting too comfortable in the low defensive block which has occasionally resulted in the team getting passive and too slow in the pressing game ultimately ending up giving away openings and room for the opposition to create dangerous situations close to our goal. This passive mindset has also led to the team not being able to take full advantage of the counter attacking possibilities that arises when we win the ball back. In these situations, we have seen that the team can start to aimlessly kick the ball long.
2. Giving away unnecessary free kicks in dangerous areas. Here it is all about staying focused and being smart.
3. Lapses in concentration leading to errors. Some good examples of this can be found among some of the goals conceded in injury time.

Continuity is of course important if we are to improve defensively. If we are to lose Worrall, Cash and Watson I believe that could make it harder to improve defensively. But then again maybe that isn't a complete disaster after all.

I'm a big admirer of Diego Simeone and what he has achieved at Atletico Madrid. Sabri has the same basic approach to the game as Simeone has. One interesting aspect is that when Simeone took over at Atletico Madrid he chose to continue with the 4-2-3-1 formation already used by the team before shifting to play a 4-4-2 formation in the following season. If we lose Watson why not go for the major upgrade in midfield that can give us the necessary mobility, vision, tempo and creativity that we lack in midfield today with our current set of midfield players. With two top central midfielders we could potentially try to implement the 4-4-2 formation that has seen Atletico Madrid becoming a big force in European football. For this to be feasible I believe we would have to recruit a top counter attacking striker that can operate a bit deeper when out of possession (usually covering the opposition's playmaker). This would then be our Griezmann who as you all know, performed this role at Atletico Madrid to perfection before moving to Barcelona. An extra counter attacking striker supported by a central midfield that will contribute in attack should prove to make our attacks much more potent and increase our goal scoring opportunities significantly.

So, what do you think - could this be a scenario that we could see implemented at Forest next season?

From a recruitment perspective, I then think we would need to buy the following players to be part of the starting 11 (assuming we lose Worrall, Cash and Watson):
1. Center Back: Experienced left sided CB preferably with some pace as that would give us the possibility of defending a bit higher up the pitch if required. Must be a leader.
2. Midfielder 1: The #6 and/or #8 all-round midfielder with playmaker capabilities. Must be an excellent reader of the game. Strong defensively.
3. Midfielder 2: The #8 box to box midfielder capable of running all day and chipping in with both goals and assists. Must contribute actively in all counter attacks. Strong defensively.
4. Counter attacking striker: The Griezmann of the Championship
5. Winger: An additional winger in the Lolley mold. Preferably with even more pace.

For me, of these 5 players the most important ones to come in are the two midfielders and the additional striker. Here I believe we will have to put some real money on the table. Maybe one or two loans but I believe there must an element of being proven at this level. I don’t believe Colback is the answer in midfield and neither do I believe that Taylor is a candidate for the counter attacking striker. They are both good footballers, but I don’t believe they have the attributes we are looking to add to the current team (Taylor similar to Da Costa and Colback similar to Sow and Yates). Of all the players we have been linked with who do you believe would fit with the requirements?

[Strawberry Avenger]

I agreed with you on our passive deficiencies.

Different players. Superior recruitment.

An articulate and progressive post, GaribaldiRed.

Let us hope the leadership is listening.

SA.

[optimistic_red]

A good read. Shame the club don't share their thoughts.
I think Sabri has to build on this year, evolution not revolution. I completely agree re Colback, and think Midfield is the area most in need of attention.

[stirred]

I don’t know enough of Sabri’s background, heavily influenced by Arrigo Sacchi I gather, but it is more than possible that while the counter-attacking theme is here to stay, the balance of our play this season was influenced by the players he had available. Asking players to do things they’re not capable of just because it is the style of play you want is going to damage your results. Watson played very well, but he wouldn’t have done if you’d asked him to be all-action, covering more ground forward for example. The way he was used got the best out of him.

I don’t have a problem with a counter-attacking style. It’s actually sensible. To try to dominate teams, you generally need the better players. That’s unrealistic against the whole division, competing against several parachute payment clubs and the odd Leeds with a much greater revenue. What would be good is us being able to be more dominant against the lesser teams, which again I point to the tools at Sabri’s disposal, and I am hoping will be fixed by player recruitment in the summer.

Midfield is where the improvement needs to happen to dominate teams and create chances against the lesser teams when they sit back, and to be able to hold onto possession better when we have a lead to defend. I think part of the reason for conceding late goals was our inability to retain possession so we had to withstand a lot of opposition attacks.

In the forward line we miss the out ball. We miss a forward who can hold the ball up. I think part of Ameobi’s value is his size – we often aim our goal kicks at him. We miss real pace to scare the opponent, and get that second goal late in the game when they’re pushing for the equalizer. I am hoping we can fix those. A new forward, someone of the like of Toney, though I’ve only seen his highlights reel. Maybe Mighten can come of age to offer pace.

The partnership down the right was one of our strengths, but Cash’s overlaps were crucial to that. If they cover Lolley cutting infield, then we had Cash on the overlap. If Cash leaves and we don’t replace that, I fear Lolley on the right becomes very much blunted as a threat.

I give Sabri the benefit of the doubt re tactics. He needs these aspects of the squad adding and retained via recruitment and through bringing on the youth.

[GaribaldiRED]

I don’t know enough of Sabri’s background, heavily influenced by Arrigo Sacchi I gather, but it is more than possible that while the counter-attacking theme is here to stay, the balance of our play this season was influenced by the players he had available. Asking players to do things they’re not capable of just because it is the style of play you want is going to damage your results. Watson played very well, but he wouldn’t have done if you’d asked him to be all-action, covering more ground forward for example. The way he was used got the best out of him.

I don’t have a problem with a counter-attacking style. It’s actually sensible. To try to dominate teams, you generally need the better players. That’s unrealistic against the whole division, competing against several parachute payment clubs and the odd Leeds with a much greater revenue. What would be good is us being able to be more dominant against the lesser teams, which again I point to the tools at Sabri’s disposal, and I am hoping will be fixed by player recruitment in the summer.

Midfield is where the improvement needs to happen to dominate teams and create chances against the lesser teams when they sit back, and to be able to hold onto possession better when we have a lead to defend. I think part of the reason for conceding late goals was our inability to retain possession so we had to withstand a lot of opposition attacks.

In the forward line we miss the out ball. We miss a forward who can hold the ball up. I think part of Ameobi’s value is his size – we often aim our goal kicks at him. We miss real pace to scare the opponent, and get that second goal late in the game when they’re pushing for the equalizer. I am hoping we can fix those. A new forward, someone of the like of Toney, though I’ve only seen his highlights reel. Maybe Mighten can come of age to offer pace.

The partnership down the right was one of our strengths, but Cash’s overlaps were crucial to that. If they cover Lolley cutting infield, then we had Cash on the overlap. If Cash leaves and we don’t replace that, I fear Lolley on the right becomes very much blunted as a threat.

I give Sabri the benefit of the doubt re tactics. He needs these aspects of the squad adding and retained via recruitment and through bringing on the youth.

Hitting teams before they have been able to find their defensive shape in general gives you a higher probability of scoring so counter attacking definitely make sense. I read somewhere that the average time it takes a team to get back to their defensive positions are 4-8 seconds and the trend is that this window of opportunity is getting smaller as teams are getting tactically better. Pace, directness, trickery and accurate passing in high speed are essential. These are the things that we have to better at. You need very skilled players to be able to make efficient use of the 4-8 seconds when the opposition is out of balance. Look at Atlectico Madrid. They have excellent players who most definitely could have played in many different formations and with different tactics but Simeone believes that his risk averse counter attacking style will give the best results. As you probably understand I'm not one to support the belief that if you have "good" players you play possession football to dominate and if you are stuck with lesser ones you play counter attacking football with a low compact defensive block. 

But Forest need to further develop a plan B for when we are not able to lure the opposition into attacking us in our low defensive block.

I believe we have two wingers in Ameobi and Lolley who are excellent in counter attacking play. If we could recruit one more with just a bit more pace then that would be great. It will also be very interesting to see what Mighten can contribute with after he has been given a few more games. Da Costa also seems to be a good player with great pace and technique but he is currently lacking a bit in understanding what is expected from him when Forest are defending. 

I also believe Grabban is an excellent striker for our system although he gets too little support from our midfielders who have predominately a defensive mindset. Again a major upgrade in the center of midfield is required if we are to challenge for auto places next season.

Attacking full backs are essential in how Forest want to play and losing Cash will be a major blow. I think I would like Darikwa with his pace and stamina to come instead of Jenkinson. I'm hoping that Sabri's man management skills will turn Darikwa into a modern day full/wing back.

[stirred]

I don’t know enough of Sabri’s background, heavily influenced by Arrigo Sacchi I gather, but it is more than possible that while the counter-attacking theme is here to stay, the balance of our play this season was influenced by the players he had available. Asking players to do things they’re not capable of just because it is the style of play you want is going to damage your results. Watson played very well, but he wouldn’t have done if you’d asked him to be all-action, covering more ground forward for example. The way he was used got the best out of him.

I don’t have a problem with a counter-attacking style. It’s actually sensible. To try to dominate teams, you generally need the better players. That’s unrealistic against the whole division, competing against several parachute payment clubs and the odd Leeds with a much greater revenue. What would be good is us being able to be more dominant against the lesser teams, which again I point to the tools at Sabri’s disposal, and I am hoping will be fixed by player recruitment in the summer.

Midfield is where the improvement needs to happen to dominate teams and create chances against the lesser teams when they sit back, and to be able to hold onto possession better when we have a lead to defend. I think part of the reason for conceding late goals was our inability to retain possession so we had to withstand a lot of opposition attacks.

In the forward line we miss the out ball. We miss a forward who can hold the ball up. I think part of Ameobi’s value is his size – we often aim our goal kicks at him. We miss real pace to scare the opponent, and get that second goal late in the game when they’re pushing for the equalizer. I am hoping we can fix those. A new forward, someone of the like of Toney, though I’ve only seen his highlights reel. Maybe Mighten can come of age to offer pace.

The partnership down the right was one of our strengths, but Cash’s overlaps were crucial to that. If they cover Lolley cutting infield, then we had Cash on the overlap. If Cash leaves and we don’t replace that, I fear Lolley on the right becomes very much blunted as a threat.

I give Sabri the benefit of the doubt re tactics. He needs these aspects of the squad adding and retained via recruitment and through bringing on the youth.

Hitting teams before they have been able to find their defensive shape in general gives you a higher probability of scoring so counter attacking definitely make sense. I read somewhere that the average time it takes a team to get back to their defensive positions are 4-8 seconds and the trend is that this window of opportunity is getting smaller as teams are getting tactically better. Pace, directness, trickery and accurate passing in high speed are essential. These are the things that we have to better at. You need very skilled players to be able to make efficient use of the 4-8 seconds when the opposition is out of balance. Look at Atlectico Madrid. They have excellent players who most definitely could have played in many different formations and with different tactics but Simeone believes that his risk averse counter attacking style will give the best results. As you probably understand I'm not one to support the belief that if you have "good" players you play possession football to dominate and if you are stuck with lesser ones you play counter attacking football with a low compact defensive block. 

But Forest need to further develop a plan B for when we are not able to lure the opposition into attacking us in our low defensive block.

I believe we have two wingers in Ameobi and Lolley who are excellent in counter attacking play. If we could recruit one more with just a bit more pace then that would be great. It will also be very interesting to see what Mighten can contribute with after he has been given a few more games. Da Costa also seems to be a good player with great pace and technique but he is currently lacking a bit in understanding what is expected from him when Forest are defending. 

I also believe Grabban is an excellent striker for our system although he gets too little support from our midfielders who have predominately a defensive mindset. Again a major upgrade in the center of midfield is required if we are to challenge for auto places next season.

Attacking full backs are essential in how Forest want to play and losing Cash will be a major blow. I think I would like Darikwa with his pace and stamina to come instead of Jenkinson. I'm hoping that Sabri's man management skills will turn Darikwa into a modern day full/wing back.

I agree, I like football to be played with intensity and purpose. Watching guardiolaball, as teams monotonously pass it amongst themselves and cross the pitch one side to another is like watching paint dry for me. Defending well and uncoiling like a spring with pace and quality would be good to watch, in the matches where it makes sense. Knowing we have the ability to punish teams like that will add to the anticipation for the supporters, so it becomes more exciting. Remember when we would knock it to Collymore...

I haven't seen a lot of Darikwa, but what I have seen I'm not impressed. I was fully behind converting Cash to right-back, he seemed to have the raw ingredients, but I think we'd have to look outside of Tendayi or Jenks to not lose a lot there. I'd prefer to allow them to both move on in search of first team football, would add room in our budget and recruit one replacement. Some positive words spoken about Richardson, maybe he can step up to be cover.

[Strawberry Avenger]

I don’t know enough of Sabri’s background, heavily influenced by Arrigo Sacchi I gather, but it is more than possible that while the counter-attacking theme is here to stay, the balance of our play this season was influenced by the players he had available. Asking players to do things they’re not capable of just because it is the style of play you want is going to damage your results. Watson played very well, but he wouldn’t have done if you’d asked him to be all-action, covering more ground forward for example. The way he was used got the best out of him.

I don’t have a problem with a counter-attacking style. It’s actually sensible. To try to dominate teams, you generally need the better players. That’s unrealistic against the whole division, competing against several parachute payment clubs and the odd Leeds with a much greater revenue. What would be good is us being able to be more dominant against the lesser teams, which again I point to the tools at Sabri’s disposal, and I am hoping will be fixed by player recruitment in the summer.

Midfield is where the improvement needs to happen to dominate teams and create chances against the lesser teams when they sit back, and to be able to hold onto possession better when we have a lead to defend. I think part of the reason for conceding late goals was our inability to retain possession so we had to withstand a lot of opposition attacks.

In the forward line we miss the out ball. We miss a forward who can hold the ball up. I think part of Ameobi’s value is his size – we often aim our goal kicks at him. We miss real pace to scare the opponent, and get that second goal late in the game when they’re pushing for the equalizer. I am hoping we can fix those. A new forward, someone of the like of Toney, though I’ve only seen his highlights reel. Maybe Mighten can come of age to offer pace.

The partnership down the right was one of our strengths, but Cash’s overlaps were crucial to that. If they cover Lolley cutting infield, then we had Cash on the overlap. If Cash leaves and we don’t replace that, I fear Lolley on the right becomes very much blunted as a threat.

I give Sabri the benefit of the doubt re tactics. He needs these aspects of the squad adding and retained via recruitment and through bringing on the youth.

Yep.

SA.

[PsychoStanleyStone]

the dust ain't settled for me

i can't even think about wearing a forest logo, too ashamed

everything about the Barnsley game and Sabri Lamouchi is disgraceful, set up to lose, make a desperate team look like Barcelona's finest 11 of all time, no offense Sabri

[Sabricadabra]

1 goal off the play offs so not much is wrong.

A few more quality additions and we should see an improvement, even with losing Cash.

Lamouchi’s style is fine as far as I’m concerned. Evolution not revolution.

[PsychoStanleyStone]

1 goal off the play offs so not much is wrong.

A few more quality additions and we should see an improvement, even with losing Cash.

Lamouchi’s style is fine as far as I’m concerned. Evolution not revolution.

if the season was 44 games long and matches lasted 85 minutes he's a resounding success

[Sniffer Dog (Admin)]

1 goal off the play offs so not much is wrong.

A few more quality additions and we should see an improvement, even with losing Cash.

Lamouchi’s style is fine as far as I’m concerned. Evolution not revolution.

Agreed ^^

We need some tweaking to the playing style no need for major change. Player upgrades too in a couple of positions and we should be good to go again.

[ThePromisedLand]

Perhaps more than just a couple Sniff.