Raising Standards

[Knocker West]

Wigan won 2-0 tonight, & it moves them out of the relegation, which must be a relief for a bankrupt club in turmoil.

Tendayi Darikwa got the assist for the second, the Wigan fans love him, some of you might have seen that Wigan fan who popped up one the NFFC twitter timeline, gushing about how much they thanked us for sending them him & how he was already their best player by far.

As you might expect there followed a couple of comments from Forest fans, debating whether or not he'd had a renaissance & whether or not we should have kept him, but I thought that discussion was missing the point, the reason he looked like a million dollar down there i because the standard down there i o much lower, & therefore poor looks average & average looks great.

It kind of got me thinking about some of the recent discussions I've witnessed, & even partaken in, & just how low our standards have become.

Of the players we've had in the last 8 or 9 years only a handful are worth a damn, back in around 13/14 you had Jack Hobbs, briefly, before the injuries crippled him, actually you had a few that year, because Reid & Cohen were still alive, Lascelles had made his debut & Collins wasn't quite to old yet, in 14/15 Antonio earned his corn, Lansbury was still bothered, & Robert Tesche, a player deemed average by the fan base at the time, was playing at a standard that would walk him straight into our team today, after that we had Pinillos for half a season, that one was sad, he never came back properly from that injury. We had Twisty's start to 16/17, we can debate what' happened next, but that tart to the season for us was the standard we should be aspiring to.

17/18 was the year of Lolley, & Tomlin & Osborn put in top Championship/Premier league standard performances too, since then we've had Matty Cash & Joe Worrall & that's it.

Others have, or had potential, others put in shifts for us, turned up & played their part, but they played that part as an average to high end Championship player, & have not, or are yet to put in regular 5 star performances that earn them a chance on the bigger stage, or at least indicate they might be able to cope up there, if the opportunity arose, & seeing as sport is competitive, & the object is to win & thus climb the leagues, our hope's, dream & aspirations must surely be to reach the summit of the mountain, & to do that we naturally require the players capable of doing it.

Someone said the other day, when talking about a player, that it was unfair to compare them to the likes of Reid, & Antonio, & Cash, but those are exactly the sort of players we should be comparing every player to, we should measure all our players by that sort of standard.

If we are to dare to dream then we need to dream of a team of 7's & ups, not 6.5's & make do's.

I felt sorry for that Wigan fan the other day, publicly gushing over a player that half our fans couldn't give a damn about, & then I thought how do we look, when our standards slip & we tart getting to emotionally attached to some average player that the rest of the world can see just in't that good?

We need to stop looking down in the gutter at that losing lottery ticket, & making excuses as to why our lucks never in & start looking up & at the opportunities, we should be dreaming of & demanding the best, we should aspire to a team that is not only good enough to challenge, but to win.

[Tricky]

Interesting debate starter Knocker.

I am pretty certain that every manager/coach that has signed a player for our club (including outside influence from those above (Vrentzos, Modesto, Fawaz etc) have signed them in the belief that each individual player will improve the side. Not one of them will have thought, 'yeah! he'll do, he's an average championship player'. They will have deemed that player good enough to play a major part in improving our side. Sadly, on most occasions, the assessment on the players brought in have been over estimated and have proven to be in the main, a poor signing. Previously, we had a first team coach, who only had some input into players being purchased. Some players were signed without their say so, or even acknowledgement (see Zach Clough for example). But that was part of their remit. They had some input but first and foremost it was their job to coach the first team, not manage it. This is, in my opinion, why we have been so poor over the past 6-7 years. By having a coach in place and players brought in by the powers above, it wasn't so difficult to sack managers, as the major influx of players had NOT been their signings. However, players, by and large, are a simple member of the human race and will allow themselves to be programmed to perform in a particular way. Once that programming has been reset, they can find it difficult to achieve the same levels of performance shown previously. If their mindset is constantly being reset, by a regular change of coach (and thus ideals and expectations) then they drop from being a good player to being average (Lolley, Grabban, Figuredo?) 

Now though, we have a Manager, and a bloody good one at that! Any incoming players we see coming through the door now, will be on his say so (hopefully). I strongly suspect that EM, Vrentzos and co have seen the error of their ways and are prepared to take a backwards step and let the Manager get on with his job. I would hope that Chris Hughton will be allowed to go out and buy the players that HE feels will do the job he wants them to do, without outside interference. If he is allowed to do that, then I do think we will see a much improved side next season. We have to get to the summer for Chris to be allowed to make wholesale changes. There are 11 (I think I read on here?) players either out of contract or are returning to their parent clubs at the end of this season. That is a lot of wages freed up to allow Chris the chance to build a smaller but improved squad. The key to this being successful though is keeping hold of Chris Hughton. Sacking him at the end of the season, or if we have a slight wobble along the way will not benefit anybody, certainly not the players!

The one constant over the past 6-7 years (or however long it is) has been instability. The coach/manager merry-go-round has not done us any favours at all. 81 new players in 3-4 years? has done us no favours at all. All they have done is cost us millions upon millions of pounds squandered in pay offs and wages for no return. Players being sent to 'the bomb squad' serve no purpose whatsoever. They are a waste of wages, time, and their own career. The instability has got to stop. We need to let Hughton get on with his job, selecting players that he wants, knows and are of the right character and give both the manager and the players time to formulate into a sensibly sized, worthy, competent squad, that knows what its roles are, and is capable of competing with high end championship players at the top end of the league.

If we stop the constant wasting of money in pay offs, over excessive wages and not required players, then we will save the club millions of pounds, which in turn would go some way to allowing us to hold on to our academy gems and not be forced to sell them to balance up the books. We can then use our home grown talent to our own advantage and not somebody else. We need to fight off any bids for Worrall in the summer too as I feel he is a brilliant captain and I do feel he can lead us up the league, with the right players in the side.

But the key to all of this is stability.

[Camms]

Good read Tricky well said.

[ThePromisedLand]

Wigan won 2-0 tonight, & it moves them out of the relegation, which must be a relief for a bankrupt club in turmoil.

Tendayi Darikwa got the assist for the second, the Wigan fans love him, some of you might have seen that Wigan fan who popped up one the NFFC twitter timeline, gushing about how much they thanked us for sending them him & how he was already their best player by far.

As you might expect there followed a couple of comments from Forest fans, debating whether or not he'd had a renaissance & whether or not we should have kept him, but I thought that discussion was missing the point, the reason he looked like a million dollar down there i because the standard down there i o much lower, & therefore poor looks average & average looks great.

It kind of got me thinking about some of the recent discussions I've witnessed, & even partaken in, & just how low our standards have become.

Of the players we've had in the last 8 or 9 years only a handful are worth a damn, back in around 13/14 you had Jack Hobbs, briefly, before the injuries crippled him, actually you had a few that year, because Reid & Cohen were still alive, Lascelles had made his debut & Collins wasn't quite to old yet, in 14/15 Antonio earned his corn, Lansbury was still bothered, & Robert Tesche, a player deemed average by the fan base at the time, was playing at a standard that would walk him straight into our team today, after that we had Pinillos for half a season, that one was sad, he never came back properly from that injury. We had Twisty's start to 16/17, we can debate what' happened next, but that tart to the season for us was the standard we should be aspiring to.

17/18 was the year of Lolley, & Tomlin & Osborn put in top Championship/Premier league standard performances too, since then we've had Matty Cash & Joe Worrall & that's it.

Others have, or had potential, others put in shifts for us, turned up & played their part, but they played that part as an average to high end Championship player, & have not, or are yet to put in regular 5 star performances that earn them a chance on the bigger stage, or at least indicate they might be able to cope up there, if the opportunity arose, & seeing as sport is competitive, & the object is to win & thus climb the leagues, our hope's, dream & aspirations must surely be to reach the summit of the mountain, & to do that we naturally require the players capable of doing it.

Someone said the other day, when talking about a player, that it was unfair to compare them to the likes of Reid, & Antonio, & Cash, but those are exactly the sort of players we should be comparing every player to, we should measure all our players by that sort of standard.

If we are to dare to dream then we need to dream of a team of 7's & ups, not 6.5's & make do's.

I felt sorry for that Wigan fan the other day, publicly gushing over a player that half our fans couldn't give a damn about, & then I thought how do we look, when our standards slip & we tart getting to emotionally attached to some average player that the rest of the world can see just in't that good?

We need to stop looking down in the gutter at that losing lottery ticket, & making excuses as to why our lucks never in & start looking up & at the opportunities, we should be dreaming of & demanding the best, we should aspire to a team that is not only good enough to challenge, but to win.

Don’t feel sorry for the Wigan fan Knocker.

When your boss - who is a regular football fan - asks you what division you are in these days you know you’ve fallen a long way.

Others feel about us exactly the same way you feel about that Wigan fan.

[Salvatore Matrecano]

Its a good thread and a number of intersting points in there.

For a start, Tricky the managerial stability thing, Ive been crying out for it too but its hard when any manager is only ever 6 games away from the sack. For heavens sake the scousers are already speculating on whether Klopp should leave. We were delighted when Lamouchi signed a new contract this time last year.

What is needed in all of this of course is a PLAN. Something I am convinced we havent got or indeed ever had. A consistent strategy and ethos we stick to regardless of who is manager. When managers come and go we recruit another specifically who fits that bill. With that out of the window goes agent based recruitment and a proper scouting system with quality over quantity. I remain hopeful that Brazil is implementing this and I do think Modesto can be very useful if he is allowed to bring the better players here rather than to Greece.

Regarding the quality of the squad overall thats another point. There have been many teams over the last few years promoted where you look at the team on paper and thought they were no better than ours, Sheff Utd, Huddersfield, Palace, any team that Warnock has ever got promoted. The difference is they have all played as a team not a bunch of individuals.
Look at Barnsley, their own fans were complaining about their strategy of only recruiting kids, nailed on for relegation apparently. Look at them now, they have stuck to the plan and their high energy game may well see them promoted. Yet I bet you wouldnt take a single one of their players and say they are good enough to get in our first team.

There is more than one way to get out of this league but throwing money at yet more average players who dont fit the system certainly isnt it.

[Sniffer Dog (Admin)]

I hear you SM. The thing is though Olympiakos can offer CL Football and we can't. Plus a lot of the players who go to Olympiakos instead of us cost millions, millions that we can't spend because of FFP. I was told the other day that Olympiakos have made 28M from qualifying and playing in Europe so far this season. We can't compete with that which is why all the so called better players that Modesto identifies go to Olympiakos.

[wassy04]

Wigan won 2-0 tonight, & it moves them out of the relegation, which must be a relief for a bankrupt club in turmoil.

Tendayi Darikwa got the assist for the second, the Wigan fans love him, some of you might have seen that Wigan fan who popped up one the NFFC twitter timeline, gushing about how much they thanked us for sending them him & how he was already their best player by far.

As you might expect there followed a couple of comments from Forest fans, debating whether or not he'd had a renaissance & whether or not we should have kept him, but I thought that discussion was missing the point, the reason he looked like a million dollar down there i because the standard down there i o much lower, & therefore poor looks average & average looks great.

It kind of got me thinking about some of the recent discussions I've witnessed, & even partaken in, & just how low our standards have become.

Of the players we've had in the last 8 or 9 years only a handful are worth a damn, back in around 13/14 you had Jack Hobbs, briefly, before the injuries crippled him, actually you had a few that year, because Reid & Cohen were still alive, Lascelles had made his debut & Collins wasn't quite to old yet, in 14/15 Antonio earned his corn, Lansbury was still bothered, & Robert Tesche, a player deemed average by the fan base at the time, was playing at a standard that would walk him straight into our team today, after that we had Pinillos for half a season, that one was sad, he never came back properly from that injury. We had Twisty's start to 16/17, we can debate what' happened next, but that tart to the season for us was the standard we should be aspiring to.

17/18 was the year of Lolley, & Tomlin & Osborn put in top Championship/Premier league standard performances too, since then we've had Matty Cash & Joe Worrall & that's it.

Others have, or had potential, others put in shifts for us, turned up & played their part, but they played that part as an average to high end Championship player, & have not, or are yet to put in regular 5 star performances that earn them a chance on the bigger stage, or at least indicate they might be able to cope up there, if the opportunity arose, & seeing as sport is competitive, & the object is to win & thus climb the leagues, our hope's, dream & aspirations must surely be to reach the summit of the mountain, & to do that we naturally require the players capable of doing it.

Someone said the other day, when talking about a player, that it was unfair to compare them to the likes of Reid, & Antonio, & Cash, but those are exactly the sort of players we should be comparing every player to, we should measure all our players by that sort of standard.

If we are to dare to dream then we need to dream of a team of 7's & ups, not 6.5's & make do's.

I felt sorry for that Wigan fan the other day, publicly gushing over a player that half our fans couldn't give a damn about, & then I thought how do we look, when our standards slip & we tart getting to emotionally attached to some average player that the rest of the world can see just in't that good?

We need to stop looking down in the gutter at that losing lottery ticket, & making excuses as to why our lucks never in & start looking up & at the opportunities, we should be dreaming of & demanding the best, we should aspire to a team that is not only good enough to challenge, but to win.

Naturally I disagree with all of this  :D no I'm kidding I agree with the sentiment, we've had a below average team for the long time and repeatedly rotating the manager because he couldn't get them to overperform their ability is obviously a terrible strategy. 

I also think the fanbase overrated our current crop pretty much every time. Same as last season when the team was very average and overachieved both in ability and statistically. Hence why I was in favour of the rebuild last summer which admittedly went terribly.

I still disagree with the point about comparing to Antonio and Cash. If we ever had had team full of them we'd walk the league. Obviously you need to have a few at that level but it's more about raising the basic level of the rest of the team for me.

[Knocker West]

...and I do think Modesto can be very useful if he is allowed to bring the better players here rather than to Greece.

I just wanted to respond to this line because you've said something similar in comment to me a couple of times, so I just wanted to acknowledge it & say that I broadly agree, while, in some sections of the fan base Modesto i becoming somewhat of a scapegoat for our poor recruitment (& our poor recruitment can not be denied) but I think thats unfair, his job is to seek out & recommend players, & as long a the right person gets to say yes & no to those recommendations then I see no problem & I'm happy for him to keep looking at what' out there.

[Sabricadabra]

Wigan won 2-0 tonight, & it moves them out of the relegation, which must be a relief for a bankrupt club in turmoil.

Tendayi Darikwa got the assist for the second, the Wigan fans love him, some of you might have seen that Wigan fan who popped up one the NFFC twitter timeline, gushing about how much they thanked us for sending them him & how he was already their best player by far.

As you might expect there followed a couple of comments from Forest fans, debating whether or not he'd had a renaissance & whether or not we should have kept him, but I thought that discussion was missing the point, the reason he looked like a million dollar down there i because the standard down there i o much lower, & therefore poor looks average & average looks great.

It kind of got me thinking about some of the recent discussions I've witnessed, & even partaken in, & just how low our standards have become.

Of the players we've had in the last 8 or 9 years only a handful are worth a damn, back in around 13/14 you had Jack Hobbs, briefly, before the injuries crippled him, actually you had a few that year, because Reid & Cohen were still alive, Lascelles had made his debut & Collins wasn't quite to old yet, in 14/15 Antonio earned his corn, Lansbury was still bothered, & Robert Tesche, a player deemed average by the fan base at the time, was playing at a standard that would walk him straight into our team today, after that we had Pinillos for half a season, that one was sad, he never came back properly from that injury. We had Twisty's start to 16/17, we can debate what' happened next, but that tart to the season for us was the standard we should be aspiring to.

17/18 was the year of Lolley, & Tomlin & Osborn put in top Championship/Premier league standard performances too, since then we've had Matty Cash & Joe Worrall & that's it.

Others have, or had potential, others put in shifts for us, turned up & played their part, but they played that part as an average to high end Championship player, & have not, or are yet to put in regular 5 star performances that earn them a chance on the bigger stage, or at least indicate they might be able to cope up there, if the opportunity arose, & seeing as sport is competitive, & the object is to win & thus climb the leagues, our hope's, dream & aspirations must surely be to reach the summit of the mountain, & to do that we naturally require the players capable of doing it.

Someone said the other day, when talking about a player, that it was unfair to compare them to the likes of Reid, & Antonio, & Cash, but those are exactly the sort of players we should be comparing every player to, we should measure all our players by that sort of standard.

If we are to dare to dream then we need to dream of a team of 7's & ups, not 6.5's & make do's.

I felt sorry for that Wigan fan the other day, publicly gushing over a player that half our fans couldn't give a damn about, & then I thought how do we look, when our standards slip & we tart getting to emotionally attached to some average player that the rest of the world can see just in't that good?

We need to stop looking down in the gutter at that losing lottery ticket, & making excuses as to why our lucks never in & start looking up & at the opportunities, we should be dreaming of & demanding the best, we should aspire to a team that is not only good enough to challenge, but to win.

Don’t feel sorry for the Wigan fan Knocker.

When your boss - who is a regular football fan - asks you what division you are in these days you know you’ve fallen a long way.

Others feel about us exactly the same way you feel about that Wigan fan.

This is the truth. We are a lower middle second tier club in virtually every respect. Most younger football fans follow the fortunes top tier clubs, or at most top tier clubs and the top end second tier clubs. Most of the time we won’t even register on the radar. Just another lower league club. And let’s face it, financially we are closer to Wigan than a Premier League club.

[Sniffer Dog (Admin)]

We are only closer financially to Wigan than a PL club until we actually get into the PL. Then things will change big time. Looking to the future I believe that ours is bright but Wigans looks very bleak. I am confident that better times are ahead for us. I am calling it from now.

[Knocker West]

We are only closer financially to Wigan than a PL club until we actually get into the PL.

This is it, we should be what we want to be, not what other decide we are, if we accept that we are a crap championhip team, then we will become a crap championhip team, it will become self-fulfilling, & our decline would continue.

This is exactly what I mean about raising standards, we need to be looking upwards, full of ambition & desire, not looking down, & accepting our lot & that should never stop.

Our history would be very different if the likes of Carey & Clough had seen us as a lower middle second tier club in virtually every respect & stuffed us full of players of that caliber.

They dared to dream & we had the pleasure of riding on the coattails of those dreams.

We have to aspire to those standards again, we must always look for bigger & better, & never settle & make do, because sport is a competitive industry, where if you snooze you lose, & as we've seen in the last 20 years, there is a string of other club waiting to seize any missed opportunities.

[Jon Moss]

I'll raise the standards even more. The potential at NFFC is huge compared to many other clubs. If/when we do make it back to the Prem I'd expect us to stay in the Prem and be competitive.